Jeff Dorman – Trading the Blockchain

michael martin martinkronicle

Jeff Dorman – Trading the Blockchain

Jeff Dorman is a Portfolio Manager and Head Trader at Arca Funds in Los Angeles. 

Jeff Dorman is the Head Trader and Portfolio Manager at Arca Funds in Los Angeles.

Arca offers institutional-caliber access to crypto and blockchain opportunities through four verticals:

​1) Asset Management – Provides private funds for access to the crypto and blockchain space

2) Index Solutions – Structuring and licensing crypto indexes

3) Structuring & Advising – Bringing both new & established companies to market using blockchain technology

4) Development – Building secure, compliant, institutional-grade blockchain products and decentralized exchanges

Jeff Dorman Interview Transcript

Michael Martin: Hey, everybody. It’s Michael Martin. Thanks for joining me today. My guest is Jeff Dorman. He’s the portfolio manager and head trader over at Arca Funds. They have expertise and block chain technology. Enjoy the show.

So, Jeff, it’s so great to have you here. You’ve been a big help to me over the years. We met when you were with Harvest, and you know, that was not even your first career. You kind of started your great experience across the board to really do what you’re doing now, but why don’t you just fill folks in a little bit before we get into the meat and potatoes of it, of your transition from Wall Street, to fine tech, to crypto, where you are now.

Jeff Dorman: Sure. Yeah, I had a more traditional Wall Street background in the beginning of my career. I spent roughly 13 years at large institutions starting as an investment banker at Lehman Brothers, and then I went to the trading desk at Merrill Lynch, and I traded high yield and distress securities, and then I went to the asset management firms and worked for a large firm, Citadel, and then a few smaller hedge funds after that, and what’s interesting is I learned a ton about the overall financial services, ecosystem, and obviously down to the specific securities that I was trading and investing in, but it always in the back of my mind felt like it was not a very transferrable job.
You look at a typical trader’s resume and it has things like, “created $10 million in P&L,” or “researched 100 different stocks or bonds.” So, I always in the back of my mind wondered what the next step for me was, and in 2013, a good friend of mine, who I worked with 10 years prior had an idea to start a thin tech company by the name of Harvest Exchange, which was building software dedicated to the asset management industry allowing them to improve their ability to market their funds and their people to perspective investors, and I came in as the head of business development, and then ultimately the COO, and it was a really interesting transition for me.
Because I had to really search hard for what those transferable skills were, obviously working hard and being comfortable talking to people and really having the ability to think creatively was important, but I think of the biggest attributes that helped me was a trader almost always tried to trade as many securities as possible. The more different securities, or the more different asset classes that you have under your umbrella the more likely at any given time you have the ability to make a nice return, because you just had more instruments at your disposal, and that same attitude really works well when you’re working for a startup.
Because you have to wear a lot of different hats, and you have to be willing to take as much as you can under your umbrella to make sure that you’re always adding a positive impact to your firm. So, I spent five years building Harvest Exchange and really enjoyed all the different elements of what it takes to build a company from fund raising to EVA HR, to systems, to business development, down to sales and marketing, and even helping the development team manage our product, and I do that for five years, and while that was going on, crypto currencies and block chain technology really started to become an everyday experience for me. I first learned about it, actually, reading an article written in 2014 by another asset manager talking about the power of Bitcoin, and then like anyone else, I was very skeptical of it at first, but ultimately started reading enough, and talking to enough people where I realized that the power behind this technology was much more than the specific currencies and tokens that exist today.
So, I’m fortunate enough now to be a co-founder of Arca Funds here in Los Angeles where I get to use both of my previous skillsets. Arca Funds is both an asset manager of crypto-currencies and crypto-assets that exist today, but also a product innovator in that we’re going to be inventing and building new security tokens that investors can ultimately invest in. So, it combines both my trading and portfolio management skills from my old world, with my start up and thin tech experience from the past five years at harvest Exchange.

Michael Martin: Yeah, I love it. Harvest was pretty amazing, actually. That was really great, I mean I was so, as a colleague, I can say this, I’m so proud of you, because Harvest really was such a great product for so many people, and you guys did it in seams. I know there’s a lot of make and sausage behind the scenes, but what everyone saw was obviously the overnight success that took 20 years to get there.

Jeff Dorman: Exactly.

Michael Martin: So, that was good, and there was a lot of great milestones that you hit along the way, and then just like any entrepreneur, after that it’s not like you’re not having fun. It’s not like the people aren’t good, and it’s not like the service has changed, but it’s like, you want some new challenges, you know what I mean? So, now it’s time to take everything that you’ve learned and all the people that you’ve met and kind of wrap it up and say, “It’s time to move the party to somewhere on a Greek Isle.” Do something a little bit more cutting edge for the day and age, and some people are built that way.
Some people are built who are really good and very resourceful to work and get things up and off the ground, and then they stay as owners and/or they hire other people to run them once they become more of an intermediate in terms of company maturity and stuff, there’s a whole other group of managers that can kind of come in and do that, whereas I think starting something up, and having those sleepless nights and working 18 hour days and still not getting enough done, and learning what your KPIs are and developing an audience, and getting engagement. That’s the key. Engagement. Cutting the churn.
That’s really where money is made, because it’s kind of easier to run a company once it’s already been up and running, but once you get something, you know, get the idea, you have to get it to execution, and then it has to be sticky. So, I think it’s a lot harder than you made it sound, but that’s because I know you.

Jeff Dorman: There were many sleepless nights along the way for sure, and certainly a lot of hard work went into it, but I think everybody’s career path ultimately is trying to find something that they’re truly passionate about, and you know, you may get lucky right away. It make take you 20 or 30 years to really find it. For me personally, I had really positive experiences along the way, every step, but I was always looking for something that really was impactful, and to me the block chain and crypto asset world was something that I just couldn’t pass up. As an analogy, I remember when I first started trading high yield bonds and distress bonds for Merrill Lynch.
Like most people, I read Liar’s Poker. You know, the story written by Michael Lewis about the Solomon brothers and about the Michael Milken days of inventing the high yield market, and in the back of my head and many of my colleagues, I always wondered, “What would it be like to create an industry rather than just be somebody who’s participating in the industry.” You know, in high yield bond trading was a lot of fun. I learned a lot. I’m fortunate to have made some pretty good money along the way as well, but I was really just a person within a machine that was already built. There was some innovation and some innovative products going around me, but I wasn’t really part of that innovative way, whereas when I looked into crypto and bond trading I really learned about the future potential.
It’s really the equivalent of going to work for the internet in 1993, where you know that there are so many powerful applications to come, but not every single powerful application has even been thought through yet, let alone built, and that excites me a lot as both an entrepreneur and an innovator, but also as a financial services veteran, always looking to create that next great product.

Michael Martin: Yeah, and then getting the adoption and getting all that is kind of key, you tend to be very, very good at that. You know, it’s interesting, when I look at crypto, there’s like 1,600 ICOs and otherwise out there having lived and traded. I was already experienced as a trader when the internet boom hit and kind of fell apart, and I can just remember that there were internet service providers that were trading at 75,000 times earnings, and now you look back and say, “Internet service provider, you practically get that stuff for free right now.”
My dead grandmother just launched her own ICO and it’s like, “This can’t end well when you look at it from a diversification.” How do you pick that kind of a deal, and I know you want to jump in here. What I think is very interesting about Arca that’s different, it seems to me, and I could be wrong, that most funds are built bottom up. You know, so called crypto experts that get into block chain where Arca is really just the other way around. You’re financial pros who have real PM experience, and you’re looking at crypto as an asset class. Did I miss something or misspeak?

Jeff Dorman: No, that’s absolutely correct, and that’s what drew me to the other partners of mine that we launched Arca with, it’s just the experience across vast areas of financial service. So, Steven McClurg, a former COO of Crowdfunder, a former managing director at Guggenheim, as well as private … experience before that, and Rein Steinberg who was the co-founder of Wisdom Tree, one of the most innovative companies when it comes to creating new and exciting ETF products, and Phil Lou who was the general counsel and product structurer at Equinox Funds. The four of us all individually had a passion and a personal interest in crypto and block chain, but we all come at it from a purely financial services mindset, which is, when you create good products for people that matches their wrist profiles and their return profiles, and actually solves a problem for them from an investing standpoint, you’re doing a good thing for the investing society.
There’s certainly some people out there who have made a fortune who just got into Bitcoin or Ethereum early, and I tip my hat to them and applaud them, and take nothing away from them, but there’s certainly a big difference between riding a wave and having good timing, versus being a fiduciary to your client’s assets and understanding risk management and appropriate sizing and other asset classes and even having a history of the market. I think the joke on Wall Street over the last seven or eight years was half the traders and asset managers out there weren’t even alive, weren’t even trading the last time there was a market downturn in 2008. How about the people who were there in 2001, and the people who were there in 1981? There’s a different skillset and a different mindset when you’ve been through some of the other cycles and crashes and across other asset classes to understand how markets develop.
I think there will be a general awakening in this sector when things start to really go down, and I’m not just talking about a correction, like we’re seeing today, but when liquidity completely dries up. I mean, what happens when all of a sudden you’re trading a liquid asset class that you think you can get in and out of any day of the week, and then all of a sudden it drops 20% on no volume and no news, just because liquidity dries up. Those are some of the things I don’t think people who have made money in crypto necessarily have experienced before, and they’re going to have to learn that. On the other side of the fence, with myself and my team, we’ve learned that and been through that, and handled that in so many different asset classes of so many different scenarios that we can apply those same rules and those same experiences to this new crypto asset class.

Michael Martin: Yeah, I mean, there’s just a bunch of … I’m just taking notes on some of the follow up questions. Going back to Rayne Steinberg, just full disclosure, I know Jono for 10 plus years. I interviewed him for, you know when I was doing some work for that esteemed magazine Trader Monthly, I also interviewed Maria and reviewed her book for, I don’t remember whether it was Huffington Post or Business Insider. So, I would consider them friends, and if nothing else, some big fans, and so Rayne, he comes from a good head of steer, you know, big financial family, and you’re right, they did great stuff with Wisdom Tree.

Jeff Dorman: He’s really an innovator, too.

Michael Martin: Oh, yeah.

Jeff Dorman: When you hear him talk, and hopefully he’ll be on your show another time, but when you hear him talk, and about some of the things that they wind up doing, it’s a different kind of mindset to create a product that the market doesn’t know it needs yet, and him and his brother were very good at that, and that’s exciting in a space like crypto assets that are so new, is that, what’s coming, some people haven’t even thought of yet, or are in the very early stages of thinking it through, and that’s going to be, in my opinion 100 times more exciting than the crypto assets that exist today.
Michael Martin: Yeah, and for those of you who didn’t make the connection, Rein Steinberg is John-o’s brother, and John-o is married to Maria Bartiromo who is from Bay Ridge Brooklyn, and how do you even not like people from Brooklyn? Bay Ridge is awesome, I mean everyone from Bay Ridge to me is awesome.
Jeff Dorman: I spent three years living in Brooklyn myself. It’s a great place.

Michael Martin: Yeah, Brooklyn’s awesome. A lot of character there. So, with that, I think what you say about … you’re talking about the people and then you’re talking about the vehicles. All you have to do is … I talked to Victor Sperandeo, probably a couple times a week, and he’s coming up on 50 years of trading experience. He started in ’68, which he needed to learn how to short sell, because that was the environment that they were in. So, he’s licking his chops, not because he wants to see people get hurt, but it’s because he can see stuff that he’s seen before going back to his solid days. So, bring on recessions and bare markets and deflation, and all that because A. He’s an expert commodity trader and two, people don’t realize that he was one of the largest market makers for options before they came standardized, and he would, everything was kind of over the counter.
They would customize the size and the strike, and everything when he has his company, and then you remind me when you talk about the products where all of a sudden there’s no bids, no volume, and no liquidity, you can’t do VWOP if you don’t have any volume, you know what I mean? Then, I remember when I started you had the Tax Reform Act of 1986, so every limited partnership that had been sold as a tax shelter went to two cents, you know what I mean? People just got murdered, and there was externalities there. One is they lost a tax treatment. Two their NAVs plummeted, on the other hand for people who were clever enough, they started a secondary market to trade these things, and so there’s a lot of stuff that happens.
What’s going to be interesting in, is if you have these initial coin offerings, I think where people get confused is, what the hell are they for? So someone has a whatever, a company, and they want to … the closest thing that people seem to understand is that it’s almost like if a company has a specific asset or revenue stream, and they want to get into crypto the can create like a Bowie Bond kind of a deal, and really get down to the granularity. You know, especially if it’s a not publicly traded company, you know it might make sense there. So, there’s so much confusion as to what the hell does the ICO? What is it? What’s the asset? What problems does it solve? Do you know what I’m saying?

Jeff Dorman: Sure, yeah, I think with the ICOs, specifically, the reality is that market is doing what it was designed to do, it just happens to be getting a lot more press and a lot more interest and a lot more news than a typical early stage financing vehicles, meaning, ICOs really are just adventure capital, right? You’re funding companies that barely exist and don’t have a product yet at the earliest stage of it’s development cycle, and as a result you’re going to have a few winners that have 100 X or even 1,000 X returns, and you’re going to have a lot of losers, maybe 90% of them are going to end up at zero, but that’s not a negative. That’s okay. That’s no different than the traditional DC model, where an adventure capital firm backs 100 companies in their portfolio, and maybe one or two of them turn into Facebook or PayPal and the other 98 you’ve never heard of, because they went away, but the two that were home runs subsidized the rest of the portfolio.
So, if you look at the ICO market as it exists today, I think it’s healthy. Obviously there is a couple of scams and frauds here and there. The market needs to figure itself out, but for the most part, it’s okay for companies to fail. It’s okay for investors to bet on early stage companies, as long as they have an understanding of what that really is. That’s different than the security token offerings that we see as interesting in the future, where you’re taking real, hard assets, and you’re tokenizing them and giving them potentially more liquidity and another avenue for financing themselves, and it’s the kind of situation where it’s good for both sides.
It’s better for the issuer, because it’s a faster cheaper, new source of capital for them, and a global source of capital, and it’s better for the investors, because you get 24/7 liquidity in theory on the exchanges, a deeper global asset base, and over time a cheaper instrument than some of the financial instruments that exist today that have a ton of fees baked into them, because of all the back office and regal costs that are embedded in them. So, when you open up an entirely new realm of investible products that are on allowable via the block chain, I think pretty soon people won’t care that they’re even on the block chain, that they’re even tokens. I think that just becomes the vehicle that people become comfortable investing in, and what they really focus on is the companies and the assets that they’re buying. I think that’s different than what you’re really seeing today.

Michael Martin: Now, I’ve read all your … you know, you have research, you have literature, it’s all pretty good stuff. I think an analogy, and I don’t know if it’s a great analogy, because some of these things might not have the best names, you really got to pick your spots, but I know you mentioned pipes, right? Private investments in public equities, but you can also do things privately, right? So, you really just have to be careful and diversify and not put, not swing for the fences on these things, because yes, everyone would have loved to have bought Netflix on the IPO and still have it at the original cost basis, but a lot has to happen between now and then, and a lot of it is also emotional.
What happens if you’ve doubled your money? So, a lot of people are like, “Hey, I want to take it,” but that looks like a bad trade when you’re up 2,500% potentially. You know what I’m saying?

Jeff Dorman: Yeah.

Michael Martin: So, what would you consider if you were going to make an analogy for people to kind of get an idea of what they were doing in the past or what investment vehicles were available in the past compared to the cryptos today? Do they resemble the access that pipes brought or is it something completely different? Where is a potential blind spot? We know what the upside is, because there’s always the promise, but where are the blind spots or the places where people can become careless?

Jeff Dorman: Sure, I think in general, there will always be financial innovation. Any time there’s investor money waiting to be invested and there is a need, whether that’s a need for a higher yield or a higher equity return or more leverage, there will be financial innovations that fill that hole, and some are good and some are bad. You mentioned pipes. For the most part, pipes were pretty good investment vehicles for a long time for people, whereas if you look at some of the credit derivative products, or even like CDO Square and Surround the housing market, which was designed purely to amplify yield, those didn’t work out very well.
So, I’m not sure if there’s a great analogy per se with the ICO market today in terms of where it fits with other financial innovations, I think the jury’s still out on that, but I do think that there’s nothing wrong with the innovation itself in terms of how these companies are coming to market and funding themselves. I think where the real test is going to be is in making sure that there’s proper due diligence and proper risk management and appropriate ways to ensure that only real companies and good companies are out there financing themselves or vice versa than investors at least understand what they’re buying so that they can be big boys and big girls and make their own decisions.
I think a lot of the negative press you hear on ICOs is purely because some of the rules that exist to protect investors and to protect issuers are not really being followed. I remember the FCC came out not too long ago saying, “We don’t need specific guidelines and rules for ICOs. They’re securities, and the security guidelines exist already and are pretty transparent if people follow the rules, then there’s no problem,” and I tend to agree with that. I think the innovation itself in terms of comparing to a pipe or a CDO Squared, or a SPAC, or any other interesting investment vehicles that have been invented over the last 20+ years, I don’t think we’ve even seen those innovations yet.
I think the ICO financing isn’t really so much of an innovation in terms of the financial product as much as it is just new technology to allow for better transactions to take place.

Michael Martin: I think you’re right. I can’t really come up with a new what does it look like too, because a lot of it is like, you’ll see stuff listed where’s there’s no real knowledge about the company or what they’re going to do to make money, but they have all this promise and they’re kind of raising it as startup or seed capital, and to me that would be just as risky as trying to invest in a film script or something like that. I think the answer might be, “What do you think the future is for investible products in block chains?” You know, you have hard assets trading versus fractional ownership. What do you see in that regard. What are some of the possibilities that retail folks who aren’t in your information flow, what are they not privy to?

Jeff Dorman: Again, before I even answer that, again there’s nothing wrong with ICO structure itself, to your point about whether the team is legit or the white paper is legit, or investors are protecting themselves, the structure itself is fine, the question is making sure investors are really understanding what they’re investing in and making sure that the team is as transparent as possible with what they’re offering. As long as those two things are met, for the most part, the structure itself is fine. I think again, where the press has kind of run away with it, is focusing on the bad actors and the processes that were not done correctly, but then again that doesn’t speak to the financing vehicle being incorrect.
That speaks to the process being incorrect. No different than if an investment bank brought a IPO and did it in a horribly, illegal, and wrong fashion. The ITO and the equity offering is not the problem, it’s the underwriter, and the issuer, and the investor who didn’t follow the rules. So, I think that’s the biggest thing to think about here in terms of the innovation to come, again at Arca we’re really focused on what hasn’t come yet and building some of that stuff.
So, we have two different divisions within our company. One is a traditional asset management where we are making investments and managing risk for accredited investors and institutional investors where we are looking at the existing landscape, right, the existing crypto currencies, the largest ones, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Light coin, etc. down to some of the riskier ICOs that we really believe in. That to me is a vehicle that awards, or offers investors the risk and return profile of this new market and allows them to take advantage of a new asset class that they may not want to manage or have the ability to manage themselves, but the other side of our business is basically a financial product innovation lab, and that’s where were going to be actually actively creating these products and creating new investment vehicles that satisfy the demands and the needs of investors.
So, that can be anything from an asset back coin, you name it, from a real estate, or fine art, or wine collection, due to even mimicking some of the financial instruments that exist today, but just simply issuing them on the block chain, whether that’s a fixed income instrument or an equity instrument, you can mirror those assets and you can issue a token backed by the assets of another financial instrument, but just do it in a cheaper, smarter, and do it with more liquidity. If you think about how ETFs … displaced isn’t the right word, but if you can think about how ETFs disrupted mutual funds, it’s for the most part, the same underlying asset class.
They just were able to do it cheaper with more liquidity and more innovation around the structures of ETFs. You can buy an ETF from just small cap healthcares or you can buy an ETF that was supposed to mirror whether or not Hillary or Trump got elected. So, to me that’s where we’re headed in block chain is financial instruments that offer investors what they want and what they need, but just with some newer smarter interesting products that weren’t previously available through the wrappers that are available today.

Michael Martin: Yeah, and I think you’re 100% right. You really have to be careful. It’s always “buyer beware,” and manage your risk no matter what it is that you’re trading you can really take the name off it, take the vehicle structure out of it, and just try to be a good fiduciary with your own money and not take on too much risk, minimize your downside, know what you can afford to lose, and then when you start doing it that way, there’s really nothing you can’t really trade to the extent that there’s a big ask market for it, right? If it’s a private placement, then that’s a different bowl of wax, but if you can trade it, then you can probably manage risk, even if it’s a liquid. What’s going to be interesting is, it’s just like you had the VIX, which is kind of more like a mathematical algorithm, and now you have futures and options.
It’ll be interesting to see how this evolves from, now you have coin offerings, you have crypto currencies, the idea of the currency part though is, hasn’t really taken off the way I think a lot of the folks who own the actual crypto was. For example, if iTunes, Amazon, Wal Mart, or some big online retailer decided to take Bitcoin as a form of payment, I think that would definitely be a heads up in the space, no different then GW Pharmaceutical getting the approval of the FDA to market their seizure CBD product. It was a monumental first time event. So, it’s going to be interesting to see how well that evolves, because then you have, if you can start creating option, then you can start creating spreads. You can start creating hedges, and then that’s better for people buying and selling risk.

Jeff Dorman: Yeah, certainly, and I think block chain right now is combining a lot of market forces, right? You’ve got the currencies like you mentioned that were designed to be store value as well as a means of exchange in payment like a Bitcoin, or Light Coin, and then you’ve also got the utility tokens that were meant to simply be a way to access a platform, and now you’ve got the security tokens, which are just financial instruments that are representing a group of assets or underlying securities, but everyone’s kind of lumping them in together. So, you may never see a scenario where Bitcoin becomes a real form of payment at some of these institutions, but that same block chain technology might enable a WalMart or a Target, or some of the institutions that you mentioned who maybe don’t accept a Bitcoin payment, but come up with their own token structure similar to a rewards program that they can use on those specific platforms.
So, there’s a lot of different ways that this can go about, and I don’t really know what that aha moment is going to be that you’re suggesting, where everyone just sort of accepts it, but I think you and I have been around financial services long enough to know that there will constantly be innovation. Innovation means more ways to trade and to manage risk, and to make money on these asset classes. So, you will see a more liquid market eventually, then that more liquid market will lead to derivative products, and derivative products will lead to different hedging mechanisms, and again this really speaks to why we feel so confident in Arca is we’ve seen all these products, and traded and managed all these products our whole lives.
So, we’re fully expecting these to exist eventually. Just because they don’t exist today, doesn’t make the space any more or less exciting, but we know that there’s going to be more opportunities in the future as more investible products come about, and as more service providers and the clarity providers come about, and there’s more derivatives and other instruments come about. I always think back to, I remember when I was in the Merrill Lynch trading desk, a very senior trader, I was only in my mid 20’s at the time, but a very senior trader that sat next to me who was 50 years old, this was in 2007 where every housing related instrument was coming about in different derivatives and different yield enhancers, and equity tranches, and down the full gambit there.
He came out of a meeting one time and he said, “I’ve been doing this for 30 years, and I didn’t understand what just happened in that meeting, and that means if I didn’t understand it, that means other investors aren’t going to understand it, and this is going to end badly,” and he was right, and it wasn’t him saying, “that I’m smarter then everyone else,” it was that financial firms and innovators will eventually push the limits to all kinds of new and exciting products. Some will fail, and some will succeed, but that doesn’t take away from the underlying technology and the innovation. There will be success stories, and there will be failures along the way, and you need people who have seen cycles and seen tones of different instruments and know how to manage their risk to make good decisions.
That same funny story, a little off topic, but and I know risk management is probably incredibly boring to most people, but the reality is today most crypto traders are saying, “How high can it go? Will it moon?” Most real institutional investors and people who have managed risk for other people’s money think the opposite way. They say, “How much can I lose?” And that’s how they think about things. I remember when I was in my mid 20’s, I made a million dollars on Merrill’s trading desk for the firm in one day, and I remember being very excited, and the same senior trader came over to me and said, “The question isn’t did you make money or lose money, the question is should you have owned that much in the first place?” And that didn’t really hit home to me then.
Because I was still high-fiving and celebrating the amount of money I made that day on a specific trade, but it certainly hit home later when the ’08 financial crisis happened, and everything that happened thereafter, it’s more important to realize what you own and why you own it, and then are you sized appropriately, that it is to look at the actual results. Those results come and go, but the process is something that you can stick with, and what gets people comfortable working with you in perpetuity.

Michael Martin: All right, buddy. That’s awesome. I appreciate your insight on that. I’m looking forward to having you back on, now that we’ve introduced you to folks and Arca of course, and digging a little deeper, because you’ll have some case studies styled, looks, deeper digs if you will, to these investments and we’ll pick your brain on the kind of stuff that you’re looking at, what’s your research telling you, and help you out, get your name out there. So, I appreciate your time very much, and taking the time to speak with me, and I look forward to having you back.

Jeff Dorman: Likewise, Mike. Thanks for having me, and happy to talk about this exciting asset class as it continues to develop.

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